Interesting Wolfgang you grew up with the basic assumption about justice as a 'double negative'... "What you don't want to be done upon you - don't do upon others".
I grew up with the 'double positive'... something like..."do unto others as wished be done to oneself".
Both have their limitations of outlook (our wants and wishes are somethi…
Interesting Wolfgang you grew up with the basic assumption about justice as a 'double negative'... "What you don't want to be done upon you - don't do upon others".
I grew up with the 'double positive'... something like..."do unto others as wished be done to oneself".
Both have their limitations of outlook (our wants and wishes are something altogether different from what we may have to have happen to us to help us learn!)
But in terms of the (christian/societal) interpretation of your quote, I am resistant to go with more 'negatives'... that "the person that caused harm and/or hurt needs to be punished". (can punishment, as opposed to a truely owned accountability , ever be a positive?)
Maybe you answer this in your following paragraph..... saying humans are ill-equipped to frame justice, it is but in the realm of God.
And I am pondering what is differentiation between 'harm' and 'hurt' our human behaviour can effect/affect another. 'Harm' has to be result of non-loving intent foisted upon, 'hurt' is more a discomfort stimulated, probably a healthy discomfort to learn from.
I commented in other threads here about 'decisive loving' and 'convicted, combative views'. All great if coming with "I wish you well" sentiment....thus maybe hurting but not harmful?
I also said now is not a time to be 'pussy-footing' around. We need get ourselves defined, and share that. We all need to find our way, our boundaries, our 'yesses' and 'no's', what to tolerate and trust, what not. True?
Thanks for your Gurdieff recommendation...
Funnily enough someone (Gigi Young on youtube?) recently made a passing reference to him, and i resonated with that content, and noted to check him out (been on my list....and finally i have started, most satisfyingly, to check out Rudolph Steiner too).
So let me get off to seek "Beelzebub's Tales to his Grandson"!...
But I agree, the best we can do is to hold as our primary purpose the realisation and expression of the love and compassion we are. Immensely challenging eh!
'Justice' can only emerge from the individual focus of humans on their inner process/spiritualisation?
Dear Steve, when I mentioned "What You don't want to be done upon You..." I left out the companion notion - or as You called it "double positive" - because it is part of this understanding like the inseparability of Yin and Yang. But there is a reason why I perused the "double negative". It is rooted in the finding of the Buddha, that in order to leave behind the otherwise eternal repetition of Karma, one has do transcend "harm and hurt", to not harm or hurt another, or oneself. The doctrine of "Do no harm, do no hurt" is then more apt interpreted - for human consumption - as to not to do upon others, what one doesn't want to be done upon oneselve. It seems more understandable, whereas doing what one wants to be done upon oneself has the limitation, that humans generally have only vague ideas what they want to be done (or "happening") to themselves. Most people have a clearer idea of what they don't want to be done upon them.
"Justice" remains a human concept. It is tied to one's point of view, to one's beliefs and understanding. There are always at least two versions of justice. The one is the demand of the directly affected by harm and/or hurt human and the other one the one by a human being witnessing/observing harm and/or hurt inflicted upon another. The call for justice by people living in Reno for the crimes against humanity perpetrated on 9/11 in New York is a different one, than the call for justice by those New Yorkers that lost a loved one, or were directly affected by these crimes. Leaving out that someone living in Reno could have had a loved one on that day in harms way in New York.
The notion of "no justice - no peace" also comes into play. Regardless of what kind of justice is demanded there, the mind cannot be at peace without justice. That is true for the individual as it is for the collective. Although it might all sound too losely connected, it is definitely one dense conglomerate of what is also described as the "human condition". And since this discussion is about the crimes against humanity perpetrated - and still ongoing - during the plandemic (but in reality since 9/11), humanity will not be able to advance without thorough justice. Not the Kangaroo-Justice doled out by the Nuremberg Tribunal.
I am very greatful for Your response - not only because I see true refinement of consciousness tied to meaningful communication - but in times of utter despair and destitution, it does give me a shred of hope that there are "others" that are paying close attention as to what is happening with humans/humanity at this precise moment in our existence. Most sincerely, W.E.W.
Your last paragraph i responded to in a heart-felt way...thanks!
You clearly have done much pondering and healthy self-definition over the years. The double negative approach encourages our human grounded awareness essential as the platform from which we can work on transcending (whilst stuck in body!). Maybe without this grounding a double positive foray encourages a spiritual bypass (New Agey style)?
Most of my life has been characterised by a process of deciding what is not for me...which results in paring down and simplifying, and being less attached to anything external...thus less open to manipulation. However i could be more creative!
I suppose call for justice has comparison with any other emotional urging... like grief...in final analysis it depends on attachment to anything external to self...and one's unresolved trauma making events more personal (like my 'heart-felt' response to your last para...maybe it was just my identification with your despair/hope meandering state of play!)
And maybe what we actually want to be manifest is not so much justice and peace, as if they can ever be absolute. What we have to see and feel is Atonement and Forgiveness in ourselves and the collective...and for sure in nullifying the utter rogue behaviour of the bad actors (but that needs per se the progressive mindful elimination of the control of demons eh)
Interesting Wolfgang you grew up with the basic assumption about justice as a 'double negative'... "What you don't want to be done upon you - don't do upon others".
I grew up with the 'double positive'... something like..."do unto others as wished be done to oneself".
Both have their limitations of outlook (our wants and wishes are something altogether different from what we may have to have happen to us to help us learn!)
But in terms of the (christian/societal) interpretation of your quote, I am resistant to go with more 'negatives'... that "the person that caused harm and/or hurt needs to be punished". (can punishment, as opposed to a truely owned accountability , ever be a positive?)
Maybe you answer this in your following paragraph..... saying humans are ill-equipped to frame justice, it is but in the realm of God.
And I am pondering what is differentiation between 'harm' and 'hurt' our human behaviour can effect/affect another. 'Harm' has to be result of non-loving intent foisted upon, 'hurt' is more a discomfort stimulated, probably a healthy discomfort to learn from.
I commented in other threads here about 'decisive loving' and 'convicted, combative views'. All great if coming with "I wish you well" sentiment....thus maybe hurting but not harmful?
I also said now is not a time to be 'pussy-footing' around. We need get ourselves defined, and share that. We all need to find our way, our boundaries, our 'yesses' and 'no's', what to tolerate and trust, what not. True?
Thanks for your Gurdieff recommendation...
Funnily enough someone (Gigi Young on youtube?) recently made a passing reference to him, and i resonated with that content, and noted to check him out (been on my list....and finally i have started, most satisfyingly, to check out Rudolph Steiner too).
So let me get off to seek "Beelzebub's Tales to his Grandson"!...
But I agree, the best we can do is to hold as our primary purpose the realisation and expression of the love and compassion we are. Immensely challenging eh!
'Justice' can only emerge from the individual focus of humans on their inner process/spiritualisation?
Dear Steve, when I mentioned "What You don't want to be done upon You..." I left out the companion notion - or as You called it "double positive" - because it is part of this understanding like the inseparability of Yin and Yang. But there is a reason why I perused the "double negative". It is rooted in the finding of the Buddha, that in order to leave behind the otherwise eternal repetition of Karma, one has do transcend "harm and hurt", to not harm or hurt another, or oneself. The doctrine of "Do no harm, do no hurt" is then more apt interpreted - for human consumption - as to not to do upon others, what one doesn't want to be done upon oneselve. It seems more understandable, whereas doing what one wants to be done upon oneself has the limitation, that humans generally have only vague ideas what they want to be done (or "happening") to themselves. Most people have a clearer idea of what they don't want to be done upon them.
"Justice" remains a human concept. It is tied to one's point of view, to one's beliefs and understanding. There are always at least two versions of justice. The one is the demand of the directly affected by harm and/or hurt human and the other one the one by a human being witnessing/observing harm and/or hurt inflicted upon another. The call for justice by people living in Reno for the crimes against humanity perpetrated on 9/11 in New York is a different one, than the call for justice by those New Yorkers that lost a loved one, or were directly affected by these crimes. Leaving out that someone living in Reno could have had a loved one on that day in harms way in New York.
The notion of "no justice - no peace" also comes into play. Regardless of what kind of justice is demanded there, the mind cannot be at peace without justice. That is true for the individual as it is for the collective. Although it might all sound too losely connected, it is definitely one dense conglomerate of what is also described as the "human condition". And since this discussion is about the crimes against humanity perpetrated - and still ongoing - during the plandemic (but in reality since 9/11), humanity will not be able to advance without thorough justice. Not the Kangaroo-Justice doled out by the Nuremberg Tribunal.
I am very greatful for Your response - not only because I see true refinement of consciousness tied to meaningful communication - but in times of utter despair and destitution, it does give me a shred of hope that there are "others" that are paying close attention as to what is happening with humans/humanity at this precise moment in our existence. Most sincerely, W.E.W.
Your last paragraph i responded to in a heart-felt way...thanks!
You clearly have done much pondering and healthy self-definition over the years. The double negative approach encourages our human grounded awareness essential as the platform from which we can work on transcending (whilst stuck in body!). Maybe without this grounding a double positive foray encourages a spiritual bypass (New Agey style)?
Most of my life has been characterised by a process of deciding what is not for me...which results in paring down and simplifying, and being less attached to anything external...thus less open to manipulation. However i could be more creative!
I suppose call for justice has comparison with any other emotional urging... like grief...in final analysis it depends on attachment to anything external to self...and one's unresolved trauma making events more personal (like my 'heart-felt' response to your last para...maybe it was just my identification with your despair/hope meandering state of play!)
And maybe what we actually want to be manifest is not so much justice and peace, as if they can ever be absolute. What we have to see and feel is Atonement and Forgiveness in ourselves and the collective...and for sure in nullifying the utter rogue behaviour of the bad actors (but that needs per se the progressive mindful elimination of the control of demons eh)