I'm not interested in discussing of history of the three thousand years of the Holy Land including the war of independence. The bottom line, on Oct 7 the de facto Government of Gaza, Hamas broke 26 August 2014 ceasefire agreement. and committed horrible atrocities against Israeli people including women and children. Israel declared…
I'm not interested in discussing of history of the three thousand years of the Holy Land including the war of independence. The bottom line, on Oct 7 the de facto Government of Gaza, Hamas broke 26 August 2014 ceasefire agreement. and committed horrible atrocities against Israeli people including women and children. Israel declared war against Hamas. with the goal of destroying Hamas military forces and infrastructure and capture or kill Hamas leadership. Are you saying that Israel doesn't have a legal or moral right to destroy Hamas, or you are saying that Israel is using too much force and there is a way to destroy Hamas with less civilian casualties?
Of course you are not interested in any context: that would poke holes in your carefully constructed narrative delusions. The fact that you say Oct. 7th broke a "ceasefire agreement" is risible. Israel has broken so many ceasefire agreements it would make your head spin, including since Oct. 7. If there was a ceasefire agreement in 2014 that Hamas was "breaking," then why did Israel attack Gaza multiple times since then, including in 2018 and 2020? Why did Israel sit on the border wall and shoot hundreds of Gazan protesting during the Great March of Return? The Israeli press reported that IDF soldiers had contests to see how many kneecaps they could shoot out in one day. These were people, women and children included, who were hundreds of yards away from the wall, many with their backs turned toward the soldiers.
You also are not interested in the fact that Israel promoted and funded Hamas because it suits their narrative to have a boogeyman they can trot out for propaganda purposes. How is it they have a "moral right" to destroy the thing they helped create? But the crux of the matter is that Israel according to International Law does NOT have the right to destroy Hamas, and they certainly do not have the right to kill civilians while pretending to do it (and Israeli officials have made no bones about the fact that they are killing civilians deliberately, even the women and children because they are "all Hamas)." International Law states that an occupied people have the right to respond with violence to their occupiers, but the occupier does NOT have the right to take revenge on them for doing it.
Now let's talk about the "horrible atrocities" Israel suffered at the hands of Hamas. Every single atrocity Israel has trotted out that "happened" on 10/7 has been shown to be just so much bunk. No beheaded babies, no burned babies, no pregnant woman ripped open, no evidence of rapes, etc. etc. Israel has had to walk back every one of these claims. Yet interestingly, every one of these atrocities has been committed in spades in Gaza by the IDF. And even IN Israel on 10/7 many of the Israelis killed were killed by the IDF itself with fire from helicopters and tank rounds firing into kibbutz houses. This has been attested by Israeli whistleblowers who survived the Israeli bombs and incendiaries. All of this has been in the Israeli press. Poster children for Hamas atrocities in the kibbutzes have turned out to have been killed by Israel. The only two "babies" killed on Oct. 7th were killed by crossfire between the IDF and Hamas, not deliberately killed by them. The IDF bombed people trying to escape from the rave, killing hundreds of people, civilians and Hamas alike. People were bombed in their cars with incendiaries. Again, we have the footage from the helicopter pilots and their testimony that they bombed people indiscriminately. We have the testimony from the hostages that Israel bombed the cars and trucks they were in on the way into Gaza. A number of hostages were killed that way, not by Hamas.
Now let's talk about why Hamas conducted the raid in the first place. (And Netanyahu knew about the plan a year in advance, and then was warned FOUR times in the week leading up to it, both by Egypt and by the CIA, yet mysteriously all defenses were "down" that day.) Israel has a policy called Administrative Detention that means they can simply grab people off the street or out of their beds with no charge and keep them indefinitely without trial. Israel takes thousands of these hostages every year, including women and children, who are never charged with anything (note it only "counts" though if Hamas does it, not if Israel does it). In administrative detention in Israel people are beaten, tortured, raped, have their bones broken and left untreated, and can be deliberately starved. All of this is attested by independent human rights agencies--Israel is on every human rights watchlist. On 10/7, the goal of the Hamas raid was to take hostages to exchange for the thousands of Palestinian hostages being held by Israel. But to you Palestinian hostages don't count, right? Only Israeli hostages count.
Now let's talk about "too much force." In the act of getting rid of "Hamas," Israel has bombed every mosque, hospital, university and school, every business, and destroyed all infrastructure and 80% of the homes in Gaza. They have deliberately targeted journalists and their families, every university professor, every doctor and health care worker. They have bombed people lining up for flour, multiple times. They have deliberately prevented food aid from getting to people. They have bombed refugee camps where they told people to go for "safety." They have admitted their goal is to wipe out every Palestinian or push them out of the country. Israel is even now going around the US selling Gaza beachfront property to American Zionists, property they do not own. They have bombed desperate people trying to fish off Gaza's coast. They have seized Gaza's oil fields and reached an agreement with BP to take the profits from them. They have a public plan to create a large shipping canal in the north of Gaza, the "Ben Gurion Canal" to compete with Suez. None of this has anything to do with "fighting Hamas."
Now let's talk about the West Bank, shall we? There is no "Hamas" there. Yet Israel has killed and kidnapped hundreds of people from the West Bank daily since 10/7. The IDF is helping settlers destroy Palestinian homes and seize Palestinian property, a criminal act that has been ongoing for years, but has sped up horrendously since 10/7. None of this has anything to do with Hamas. I could go on and on and on.
There is no legitimacy to your argument--Israel is a mafia state based on terrorism and war crimes, and it has been from the beginning. That is why it is necessary to talk about racist, exceptionalist Zionist ideology as it was formulated in the ferment of 19th c. German nationalism, the same environment that produced Nazism. Zionism makes the same claims about racial purity and "chosenness" as Nazism does, and it discounts the rights of any others in the same way Nazism did and does today. These ideas were stated quite openly by the original Zionists and certainly by the founders of the state of Israel. They felt Palestinians were simply not as important as they were, and certainly not worth as much--they wrote this in surviving documents and said it in public. They openly used Hebrew Bible quotes about seizing the land of Canaan and destroying those occupying it. They made up fictions about Palestine being "empty," and Palestinians being "just nomads who could live anywhere," or "recent arrivals," all of which were manifestly untrue and ridiculous. These same fictions are being mouthed by Israelis today, even though they are easily proven false. Palestinian ancient DNA is Canaanite, proving they have lived in Palestine for at least 3000+ years. Palestine was a thriving economy with a rich history long before European Zionists descended on it and declared it was theirs. The had the INTENT over 100 years ago to kill and drive out Palestinians, and seize all the land of "eretz Israel," and that included Jordan, Lebanon and much of Syria, which is why Israeli wars of aggression have seized parts of those lands and they continue to be targeted as we speak. Where is the "Hamas" in Syria and Lebanon as they are being bombed today?
Thank you for your honesty. Basically, Jews are rapists of Palestinian land from the river to the sea and the land has to be cleansed from dirty Jews by any means necessary. Go ahead, try. But remember,
And it is this (the Torah) that has stood by our ancestors and for us.
For not only one (enemy) has risen up against us to destroy us,
but in every generation, they rise up to destroy us.
But the Holy One, Blessed be He, delivers us from their hand.
Here we go--to the Zionists, Palestinians are rising up against them, when Zionists are the ones who actually did the showing up and rising up. Note that Palestinians did nothing to destroy European Jews (the Zionists). That was European Christians who did that. Palestinians, 10% of whom were and are Christian, lived perfectly happily with Sephardic Jews for centuries. In fact, it was Muslims who allowed Jews back into Jerusalem after Christians had kept them out of it for 600 years. European Jews could have been moving back to Palestine for a millennium without any issues, but they didn't. I wonder why not?
To the Zionist mind, Palestinians are supposed to just sit there and be happy to be relieved of their land and their existence, because they are inferior, right? They are not "chosen." You said it yourself. ROFL. Newsflash: we don't assign countries based on 2500 year old religious texts. Nor do we allow people to show up many years later in a country their distant ancestors lived in and claim it is theirs, otherwise, all of us could claim land anywhere. Given the thousands of distant ancestors we all had, it's ridiculous. I myself could claim land in ten different countries, including Palestine.
Furthermore, when the so-called "disapora" happened, most Jews did not leave Judaea. Only the most powerful who had been driven out of Jerusalem left. The peasants stayed. Over time, many converted to Christianity when Christianity took over the Roman world. Then after Islam conquered Palestine, many more converted to Islam because there were financial advantages: it was simply easier to succeed if you were Muslim, because you weren't heavily taxed. So it's quite possible, indeed probable, that today's Palestinians are the descendants of Jews from Hasmonaean Judaea. This was well-known 100 years ago; in fact, David Ben Gurion even wrote a scholarly article about it. That was before Zionists decided it was better propaganda to pretend Palestinians were nomadic Arab tribespeople.
But I don't even really need to say any of this. Your own comment speaks for itself.
"Palestinians are supposed to just sit there and be happy to be relieved of their land and their existence, because they are inferior, right?"
I guess you suggest that they should fight to the bitter end for another 100 years until the Land from the river to the sea will be cleansed from Jews by any means necessary. This is what you want. Have courage of your convictions, write it down.
No, this is Zionist paranoia and juvenile propaganda. No one wants this, neither Muslims nor Christians. This is the childish Zionist whine that the whole world now sees for what it is. By your "logic," hundreds of thousands of anti-Zionist Jews all over the world demonstrating in the streets against Israeli genocide are anti-Semites who want to rid the world of themselves. This is a really sad, pathetic take. This is the bully who whines and cries that no one likes him after he beats up little kids.
" Gazan protesting during the Great March of Return?"
I understand that you consider all Holy Land to be occupied by Zionists and want to free this land from "Zionists". Let me re-phrase my early statement:
I guess you suggest that they should fight to the bitter end for another 100 years until the Land from the river to the sea will be cleansed from Zionists by any means necessary.
I want what any sane person wants: a country that is not an ethno-state where everyone has equal rights, and where one fake ethnicity (because there is no Jewish ethnicity, only a religion) does not rule and does not subjugate others and take their property, and does not bomb, rape and shoot them every few years just for the hell of it. The fact that you could not figure out that obvious fact tells me everything I need to know about you.
"just for the hell of it" No. not just for the hell of it". No, they don't want to be a minority ethnic or religious in the Middle East. Not an appealing option.
Note that prior to the onslaught of Zionist terrorism in the 1920s, Palestinians were just fine with Jews buying land and living in Palestine. Many Palestinians took Jews fleeing Russian pogroms into their homes, only to have those homes seized by those Jews later. It was only when the Zionist terror gangs started and the Zionists became open about their plans for seizing the country that there was the Arab uprising in the 1920s. Even so, during the height of Zionist terrorism in the 1930s and 1940s, Palestinians were surprisingly non-violent in return. Zionists are their own worst enemies, constantly accusing others of what they themselves are doing. Palestinians would not be a minority ethnicity if you would stop killing them. They were not a minority in 1948, and they would not be a minority in a modern state either. Yes Zionists kill Palestinians now just for the hell of it. That's why the IDF refers to bombing Palestinians every couple of years as "mowing the lawn." They don't need a reason, and half the time the manufactured reason is ridiculous. I have seen Zionists like you whine about the fact that Palestinians have so many kids--well, I just refer you to Exodus 1:12 "And the more they were oppressed, the greater their numbers grew." Palestinians know Israelis are trying to wipe them out; that message could not be more clearly expressed by Israeli officials. Of course they are trying not to be wiped out. Of course they are trying not to be evicted, once again, from their land they've lived in for thousands of years. Trying to do that to them is criminal, no matter what your so-called religious claims are. The fact that you could think God wants any such thing shows a moral degradation that disgusts me. If Zionists don't want to share the land they stole on equal terms with the people they stole it from, then that tells the world everything we need to know about what kind of humans they are.
You are not going to shame Jews in Israel to commit suicide. Hopefully one day Palestinians will figure this out, stop listen to lunatics like you and decide to live happily next to Jewish state of Israel
Linda,
I'm not interested in discussing of history of the three thousand years of the Holy Land including the war of independence. The bottom line, on Oct 7 the de facto Government of Gaza, Hamas broke 26 August 2014 ceasefire agreement. and committed horrible atrocities against Israeli people including women and children. Israel declared war against Hamas. with the goal of destroying Hamas military forces and infrastructure and capture or kill Hamas leadership. Are you saying that Israel doesn't have a legal or moral right to destroy Hamas, or you are saying that Israel is using too much force and there is a way to destroy Hamas with less civilian casualties?
Of course you are not interested in any context: that would poke holes in your carefully constructed narrative delusions. The fact that you say Oct. 7th broke a "ceasefire agreement" is risible. Israel has broken so many ceasefire agreements it would make your head spin, including since Oct. 7. If there was a ceasefire agreement in 2014 that Hamas was "breaking," then why did Israel attack Gaza multiple times since then, including in 2018 and 2020? Why did Israel sit on the border wall and shoot hundreds of Gazan protesting during the Great March of Return? The Israeli press reported that IDF soldiers had contests to see how many kneecaps they could shoot out in one day. These were people, women and children included, who were hundreds of yards away from the wall, many with their backs turned toward the soldiers.
You also are not interested in the fact that Israel promoted and funded Hamas because it suits their narrative to have a boogeyman they can trot out for propaganda purposes. How is it they have a "moral right" to destroy the thing they helped create? But the crux of the matter is that Israel according to International Law does NOT have the right to destroy Hamas, and they certainly do not have the right to kill civilians while pretending to do it (and Israeli officials have made no bones about the fact that they are killing civilians deliberately, even the women and children because they are "all Hamas)." International Law states that an occupied people have the right to respond with violence to their occupiers, but the occupier does NOT have the right to take revenge on them for doing it.
Now let's talk about the "horrible atrocities" Israel suffered at the hands of Hamas. Every single atrocity Israel has trotted out that "happened" on 10/7 has been shown to be just so much bunk. No beheaded babies, no burned babies, no pregnant woman ripped open, no evidence of rapes, etc. etc. Israel has had to walk back every one of these claims. Yet interestingly, every one of these atrocities has been committed in spades in Gaza by the IDF. And even IN Israel on 10/7 many of the Israelis killed were killed by the IDF itself with fire from helicopters and tank rounds firing into kibbutz houses. This has been attested by Israeli whistleblowers who survived the Israeli bombs and incendiaries. All of this has been in the Israeli press. Poster children for Hamas atrocities in the kibbutzes have turned out to have been killed by Israel. The only two "babies" killed on Oct. 7th were killed by crossfire between the IDF and Hamas, not deliberately killed by them. The IDF bombed people trying to escape from the rave, killing hundreds of people, civilians and Hamas alike. People were bombed in their cars with incendiaries. Again, we have the footage from the helicopter pilots and their testimony that they bombed people indiscriminately. We have the testimony from the hostages that Israel bombed the cars and trucks they were in on the way into Gaza. A number of hostages were killed that way, not by Hamas.
Now let's talk about why Hamas conducted the raid in the first place. (And Netanyahu knew about the plan a year in advance, and then was warned FOUR times in the week leading up to it, both by Egypt and by the CIA, yet mysteriously all defenses were "down" that day.) Israel has a policy called Administrative Detention that means they can simply grab people off the street or out of their beds with no charge and keep them indefinitely without trial. Israel takes thousands of these hostages every year, including women and children, who are never charged with anything (note it only "counts" though if Hamas does it, not if Israel does it). In administrative detention in Israel people are beaten, tortured, raped, have their bones broken and left untreated, and can be deliberately starved. All of this is attested by independent human rights agencies--Israel is on every human rights watchlist. On 10/7, the goal of the Hamas raid was to take hostages to exchange for the thousands of Palestinian hostages being held by Israel. But to you Palestinian hostages don't count, right? Only Israeli hostages count.
Now let's talk about "too much force." In the act of getting rid of "Hamas," Israel has bombed every mosque, hospital, university and school, every business, and destroyed all infrastructure and 80% of the homes in Gaza. They have deliberately targeted journalists and their families, every university professor, every doctor and health care worker. They have bombed people lining up for flour, multiple times. They have deliberately prevented food aid from getting to people. They have bombed refugee camps where they told people to go for "safety." They have admitted their goal is to wipe out every Palestinian or push them out of the country. Israel is even now going around the US selling Gaza beachfront property to American Zionists, property they do not own. They have bombed desperate people trying to fish off Gaza's coast. They have seized Gaza's oil fields and reached an agreement with BP to take the profits from them. They have a public plan to create a large shipping canal in the north of Gaza, the "Ben Gurion Canal" to compete with Suez. None of this has anything to do with "fighting Hamas."
Now let's talk about the West Bank, shall we? There is no "Hamas" there. Yet Israel has killed and kidnapped hundreds of people from the West Bank daily since 10/7. The IDF is helping settlers destroy Palestinian homes and seize Palestinian property, a criminal act that has been ongoing for years, but has sped up horrendously since 10/7. None of this has anything to do with Hamas. I could go on and on and on.
There is no legitimacy to your argument--Israel is a mafia state based on terrorism and war crimes, and it has been from the beginning. That is why it is necessary to talk about racist, exceptionalist Zionist ideology as it was formulated in the ferment of 19th c. German nationalism, the same environment that produced Nazism. Zionism makes the same claims about racial purity and "chosenness" as Nazism does, and it discounts the rights of any others in the same way Nazism did and does today. These ideas were stated quite openly by the original Zionists and certainly by the founders of the state of Israel. They felt Palestinians were simply not as important as they were, and certainly not worth as much--they wrote this in surviving documents and said it in public. They openly used Hebrew Bible quotes about seizing the land of Canaan and destroying those occupying it. They made up fictions about Palestine being "empty," and Palestinians being "just nomads who could live anywhere," or "recent arrivals," all of which were manifestly untrue and ridiculous. These same fictions are being mouthed by Israelis today, even though they are easily proven false. Palestinian ancient DNA is Canaanite, proving they have lived in Palestine for at least 3000+ years. Palestine was a thriving economy with a rich history long before European Zionists descended on it and declared it was theirs. The had the INTENT over 100 years ago to kill and drive out Palestinians, and seize all the land of "eretz Israel," and that included Jordan, Lebanon and much of Syria, which is why Israeli wars of aggression have seized parts of those lands and they continue to be targeted as we speak. Where is the "Hamas" in Syria and Lebanon as they are being bombed today?
Thank you for your honesty. Basically, Jews are rapists of Palestinian land from the river to the sea and the land has to be cleansed from dirty Jews by any means necessary. Go ahead, try. But remember,
And it is this (the Torah) that has stood by our ancestors and for us.
For not only one (enemy) has risen up against us to destroy us,
but in every generation, they rise up to destroy us.
But the Holy One, Blessed be He, delivers us from their hand.
Here we go--to the Zionists, Palestinians are rising up against them, when Zionists are the ones who actually did the showing up and rising up. Note that Palestinians did nothing to destroy European Jews (the Zionists). That was European Christians who did that. Palestinians, 10% of whom were and are Christian, lived perfectly happily with Sephardic Jews for centuries. In fact, it was Muslims who allowed Jews back into Jerusalem after Christians had kept them out of it for 600 years. European Jews could have been moving back to Palestine for a millennium without any issues, but they didn't. I wonder why not?
To the Zionist mind, Palestinians are supposed to just sit there and be happy to be relieved of their land and their existence, because they are inferior, right? They are not "chosen." You said it yourself. ROFL. Newsflash: we don't assign countries based on 2500 year old religious texts. Nor do we allow people to show up many years later in a country their distant ancestors lived in and claim it is theirs, otherwise, all of us could claim land anywhere. Given the thousands of distant ancestors we all had, it's ridiculous. I myself could claim land in ten different countries, including Palestine.
Furthermore, when the so-called "disapora" happened, most Jews did not leave Judaea. Only the most powerful who had been driven out of Jerusalem left. The peasants stayed. Over time, many converted to Christianity when Christianity took over the Roman world. Then after Islam conquered Palestine, many more converted to Islam because there were financial advantages: it was simply easier to succeed if you were Muslim, because you weren't heavily taxed. So it's quite possible, indeed probable, that today's Palestinians are the descendants of Jews from Hasmonaean Judaea. This was well-known 100 years ago; in fact, David Ben Gurion even wrote a scholarly article about it. That was before Zionists decided it was better propaganda to pretend Palestinians were nomadic Arab tribespeople.
But I don't even really need to say any of this. Your own comment speaks for itself.
"Palestinians are supposed to just sit there and be happy to be relieved of their land and their existence, because they are inferior, right?"
I guess you suggest that they should fight to the bitter end for another 100 years until the Land from the river to the sea will be cleansed from Jews by any means necessary. This is what you want. Have courage of your convictions, write it down.
No, this is Zionist paranoia and juvenile propaganda. No one wants this, neither Muslims nor Christians. This is the childish Zionist whine that the whole world now sees for what it is. By your "logic," hundreds of thousands of anti-Zionist Jews all over the world demonstrating in the streets against Israeli genocide are anti-Semites who want to rid the world of themselves. This is a really sad, pathetic take. This is the bully who whines and cries that no one likes him after he beats up little kids.
"No one wants this". Then what do you want?
From your comment:
" Gazan protesting during the Great March of Return?"
I understand that you consider all Holy Land to be occupied by Zionists and want to free this land from "Zionists". Let me re-phrase my early statement:
I guess you suggest that they should fight to the bitter end for another 100 years until the Land from the river to the sea will be cleansed from Zionists by any means necessary.
I want what any sane person wants: a country that is not an ethno-state where everyone has equal rights, and where one fake ethnicity (because there is no Jewish ethnicity, only a religion) does not rule and does not subjugate others and take their property, and does not bomb, rape and shoot them every few years just for the hell of it. The fact that you could not figure out that obvious fact tells me everything I need to know about you.
"just for the hell of it" No. not just for the hell of it". No, they don't want to be a minority ethnic or religious in the Middle East. Not an appealing option.
Note that prior to the onslaught of Zionist terrorism in the 1920s, Palestinians were just fine with Jews buying land and living in Palestine. Many Palestinians took Jews fleeing Russian pogroms into their homes, only to have those homes seized by those Jews later. It was only when the Zionist terror gangs started and the Zionists became open about their plans for seizing the country that there was the Arab uprising in the 1920s. Even so, during the height of Zionist terrorism in the 1930s and 1940s, Palestinians were surprisingly non-violent in return. Zionists are their own worst enemies, constantly accusing others of what they themselves are doing. Palestinians would not be a minority ethnicity if you would stop killing them. They were not a minority in 1948, and they would not be a minority in a modern state either. Yes Zionists kill Palestinians now just for the hell of it. That's why the IDF refers to bombing Palestinians every couple of years as "mowing the lawn." They don't need a reason, and half the time the manufactured reason is ridiculous. I have seen Zionists like you whine about the fact that Palestinians have so many kids--well, I just refer you to Exodus 1:12 "And the more they were oppressed, the greater their numbers grew." Palestinians know Israelis are trying to wipe them out; that message could not be more clearly expressed by Israeli officials. Of course they are trying not to be wiped out. Of course they are trying not to be evicted, once again, from their land they've lived in for thousands of years. Trying to do that to them is criminal, no matter what your so-called religious claims are. The fact that you could think God wants any such thing shows a moral degradation that disgusts me. If Zionists don't want to share the land they stole on equal terms with the people they stole it from, then that tells the world everything we need to know about what kind of humans they are.
You are not going to shame Jews in Israel to commit suicide. Hopefully one day Palestinians will figure this out, stop listen to lunatics like you and decide to live happily next to Jewish state of Israel